"Do you know who gave the Soviet Union the strongest blow? Those Armenians started the armed conflict in order to occupy territory of another country. Although Armenians constituted the majority of the population, Nagorno-Karabakh was the territory of Azerbaijan, according to the constitution", former chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of Russian Federation, a Russian political analyst from Dagestan, social activist, columnist, professor Ruslan Khasbulatov said in the interview with Ruslan Kurbanov.

Eurasia Diary presents this interview to our readers:

-Ruslan Imranovich, thank you for agreeing to give an interview, which is a great honor for us. For the first time, I would like to ask such a question for our Caucasian audience. You are the representative from Caucasus in the modern history of Russia, the highest position in the ruling system. No one from Caucasus will be able to reach to such a high position, neither before nor after you, probably even many years later.

-Why not? Joseph Stalin…

-After Stalin, you were the one from the North Caucasus.

-Well, after Stalin, I was probably the second one. True, they did not let me to take in the highest rank.

-Is it possible for a Caucasian to hold such a high post in modern Russia?

-Of course not. You know, I graduated from the Moscow State University and became a secretary of the Komsomol Committee in the university. Then I worked in the Central Committee. Do you think I could be chosen as a member of the Komsomol Committee of Moscow State University today?

-You said this not possible. Why?

- Because it is a different system, consider that the Soviet Socialist Republics was a country created equal opportunities for everyone.

-Even for the member of a deported nation?

- Even for them. Of course, Stalin was the brutal butcher of the 20th century and the history of humanity has never seen like this before. The man who fought against his people. Even Hitler did not fight against his own people, and Hitler did not destroy Germans. Of course, it is impossible to justify the destruction of millions of people, but he did not kill his people, however, Stalin did destroy his own people.

-At that time, there were not any biased ideas against the Caucasus.

-No, there were not…

- Now, it is possible to face with this in all areas.

- This means that the state is weak. It happens because of the ordinary citizen, not by the Russian Parliament, the Russian government, by Putin. The state does not have the moral authority to express itself and to convince ordinary citizens.

-Ruslan Imranovich, the current economic situation of the state, poor financial situation, subsidy issues. In a republic of the Caucasus, people are unable to provide themselves with food. What is the reason for this?

- Both the federal government and the local authorities are the root of this. I think both are equals. However, let us take the central part of the Russian Federation; do you think that the situation is any better than in the Caucasus?

There is also the same thievery, the same corruption, wantonness, bribery, clanship. Who is the evildoer?

- Plunder and corruption are now at the federal level.

- There is no such thing. However, a Russian colonel embezzled 12 billion rubles; he is not from the Caucasus. Besides another colonel from the Ministry of Interior has embezzled 8 billion and it is being discussed on the Internet. Yes, colonels, not rubles have to be unit of measure for the budget. This system is so indifferent. After the dissolution of the Russian Parliament, this government began to be represented by colonels, administrators, and the parliaments were destroyed at the federal level, at the Moscow level and at the state level. None of opposition force like law or parliament exists, there is nothing.

- Is that an intentional policy?

- How is it purposeful? The point is that purposeful policy does not exist. You are appointed a big great boss and given the opportunity to get everything. This is not a purposeful policy, this is a chaotic one. The richest country in the world is the Russian Federation. In addition, one of the poorest nations in the world lives here.

- Why the republics of the northern Caucasus are so poor?

- The northern Caucasian republics, like regions of the Russian Federation, are in poor condition. Because there is weak management, the state apparatus for economy does not work, bribery prevails there, and they are busy with solving their problems. Putin cannot cope alone, he cannot deal with all these issues ... He may be tired, he has been taking this sit for 20 years, Being bad or good is another matter, but he has tried and been trying to do something. However, it is impossible to do it alone in a giant state, and there are no forces in different political blocks, all of them killed in 1993. Why did people not attempt defense of the parliament at that time? I have been elected by people, by not appointed. Do you know how much should I spend on the elections? Now, they say it need more money to be a deputy. My 2-months professor salary was enough for me ... The amount sufficed all election campaigns. Because the people elected, wanted it at that time. The 1989-1990 elections were the first and last fair elections of the Russian Federation, and people wanted to change, they believed us, MPs, but when they were destroying us, Russian people did not come to defend us. Now they are paying back for being silent.

-Is it to say that all the ensuing conflicts in the Caucasus: ethnic, territorial, developments between Ingushetia and North Ossetia, all the events in Chechnya were the result of the shelling of the Parliament in 1993?

- This is the result of the shooting. Because after that the state disappeared. In my book, I called the state "Yeltsin's unfinished state." Thus, Yeltsin did not build a state. I thought that Putin would build the state of Russia, but he did not build it. Therefore, I do not believe that until the normal state system is restored, Caucasians will live well and the Russians will live well in the center of Russia, Altai, Yakutia or the Far East. I do not believe it until a strong parliament is formed.

Prime Minister, can not you cope? The door is open. How much you promised, one, two, three, you say nonsense, there is nothing in action. At the same time, listen, why the Soviet Union collapsed? I have written many books about this. Other writers also wrote and Gorbachev wrote many books and left many important facts. But one of the reasons was the lack of money in Gorbachev's Central Executive Authority over the past two years. The price of oil dropped to $ 8 per barrel. Today, government officials are afraid that oil will fall to $ 40.

Comparing that time, Putin is luckier now. When Putin came to power in May 1999, oil prices on the world markets began to rise. And it has been growing since then. No one thought empty Russian treasury would be filled. Then everyone wanted money as a poor beggar, and humanitarian aid was sent to them. The mighty country was very rich thanks to this help. Executive heads of major cities, including St. Petersburg, Moscow and others.

Instead of giving it to those in need, they sold for money. So the situation changed and the Russian treasury was full of money. So far they do not know what to do with gold. What is gold? Gold is the most reliable, stable money.

It's like a treasure. Instead of investing in human development, medicine, education, and science-related projects, it was worse than before - they spent on American bonds. Instead of developing the USSR, we had more than 100 billion rubles. Interestingly, we produce oil and oil workers bring huge amounts of money by going deeper into the earth, the seas, and the oceans, and talk about the difficulties they face when producing oil. Then they bring money to the West, take money, and spend this money on American bonds, and now they begin to collect gold.

- How do you explain this economic policy of Russia?

- Unintelligent, weak and irresponsible people.

- How do you view the communists' claims that the current Russian elite has been bought by the West?

- Are not Communists bought themselves?

- If the Communists destroyed the Soviet Union then how were they bought?

- The ruling Communists are all members of the ruling elite, they all belong to one system, and I have described this system as a scientific category - State Oculist Capitalism. At Yeltsin's time, I think that the management was being implemented as a group. Yeltsin was the first oligarch, and his leadership led by collective oligarchy, especially seven famous bankers, and when Putin came to power he gradually broke it and created a new system. It was already state oligarchic capitalism, and none of these oligarchs are in power, they are controlled by him or he thinks he controls.

- In seven banker years, how much they have been controlled by Washington?

- They have never been controlled by Washington.

- When the Soviet Union collapsed, why ...

- They destroyed USSR themselves.

- Why KGB was passive?

- The KGB was weak because they had forgotten how to work, they were dealing with all kinds of nonsense, and now they are still dealing with it, listening to phones, who say what at work. Some special departments are engaged in such work rather than working seriously and warning of such issues. Or do you know who hit the most powerful blow to Soviet Union? Armenians who started armed conflict in order to seize another's territory. Although Armenians constitute the majority, the constitution, Nagorno-Karabakh belonged to Azerbaijan.

They decided to set armed conflict instead of solving the problem peacefully.  Afterwards, Central committee and KGS should deal with it, they have to wait for Gorbachev’s instructions, securing the state is his responsibility.  They have to arrest 2-3 people from these 3 republics.

- It means, the collapse of USSR starts from Caucasus?

It seems it started from Caucasus. When armed conflict started and Baltic States to raise sovereignty issue when they see non-serious actions. They set tasks on MPs, Give us economic independence! I was then a counselor on social issues Biryukov, deputy chairman of the Soviet Union Council of Ministers. I wrote a post at that time so why you are making obstacles?

Then Nikolai Ivanovich Rijkov called me and I talked to him for the first time. He said, academician Abalkin advised me to meet you. By the way, Rijkov made a good impression on me. I said, yes, give them economic freedom, because if you do not grant economic freedom, they will soon demand political freedom. Why did they want to do so? Because you did not do anything. I asked them did you punish those who started the Armenian-Azerbaijani war. However, he said that Volsky is dealing with this.

Volski is an ordinary civilian, a common party functionary, suddenly stalking out and doing the job there. How to deal with this issue? In Nagorno-Karabakh separatists stood up against the Azerbaijani state. What steps should be taken against them? It was necessary to imprison separatist Armenians and seriously punish them.

If the discipline in Armenia and Baku was hold by iron hand, there would have been no victims, perhaps twenty-thirty. But now it is only half a million ... This is the case. If discipline was maintained, and you told rightly that the KGB was virtually passive, waiting for the solution of any political issues that they had to act in conformity with the Constitution - the Soviet Union was not dispersed in 1987-1988, No one would have the courage to unite, unite, or break up, and so on.

- So, what do I want to say? After all, the events in Chechnya have nothing to do with discipline. The situation in Grozny was allowed to grow up to this point ...

- The point is that the events in Grozny were developing like in Tatarstan, the Far East and Dagestan. I've been there, and I've been trying to stop fighting between two enemy groups.

- Awakening of national consciousness...

Of course, but in fact, in all regions, in all the republics, there were still relatively normal local leaders. Except Chechen-Ingushetia. The party leadership of Chechen-Ingushetia was sold and they fled away during this situation. Then they started accusing me and the Supreme Council. Although I was in Japan when these events were happening, Gorbachev sent me with Yeltsin with a special assignment to the Kuril Islands. When the collapse of the Supreme Council of Chechen-Ingushetia happened, I was not in Moscow. The local government has reached dead point. In Dagestan, Tatarstan, Bashkiria, there was a great riot everywhere. In Kazan there were generally the Tatars Public Center (TAT), and it was a very large separatist organization. However, local leaders managed to meet with them and work together. However, the head of the Chechen-Ingushetia ran away and left there with no ruler.

- Who directed the actions of Yeltsin?

- I think that scammer group, I called them like this leaded him. These are Kozyrev - a completely incomprehensible person, Poltoranin, Burbulis, Shahray. These are a bit angry people. Apparently, they were very eager to pursue careers, but in the Soviet Union they did not succeed, and now they have joined Yeltsin and directed him. He was an illiterate person, he was in our house and entered the library, but I do not like to talk about it; and said, "Do you read all this?" I say this is just a small part of my library. He laughed, "We are friends," he said, "if I say frankly, I've never read at least 10 books during all my life." He was a completely illiterate person. The only thing he knew was the great experience he had gained in the party system as a lieutenant. It was not necessary to have knowledge for this, the apparatus was working very well.

- Ruslan Imranovich, please tell us, is it possible to build a Caucasian economic system and become a donor for the rest of Russia? Or are we forced to live in subsidies?

- Which Caucasus you mention>?

- Russian Caucasus

- I have written some articles and said that the Caucasus should be uniform. What is the Caucasus? The Caucasus is a multinational integrity. Throughout the decades, the Caucasian peoples have spoken in different languages, practicing different religions, and have always been helping each other when needed. By the way, they never had a war between themselves.

Historians will tell you ... My brother and sister are wonderful historians. Both are alive, thank God. They have noted an interesting issue: there are many nations and peoples in Dagestan, there are Chechnya, but they have not fought each other. But whenever the people are persecuted, all have come to their aid. This is a multinational unity, the formula I have mentioned.

It requires the restoration of the unity of the Caucasus, I completely disagree with that Federal authorities emphasize Transcaucasian Republic as a one part- Armenia including, but I repeat, Armenia was the main cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

And at the same time, I think Putin made an absolutely correct decision, did not declare sanctions and generally took a conciliatory position. It seems to me that the Russian Federation will become much richer in its policy and diplomacy if it establishes close relations with Azerbaijan and Georgia. Here is one level. The second level, of course, needs to create some kind of North Caucasian commonwealth of states and peoples. What we see currently? Negative processes occur, some border lines are set. These items I consider wildness. In Europe, nothing negative happens between states and inside of states, but something happens in our country.

- And such a united Caucasus could become a donor for other regions of Russia?

- Yes, nobody is against to that Caucasus to become a donor, well, it is needed to ensure a normal life for yourself and your youth. And what happens to the Caucasian youth? Ooo same goes anywhere. So, it is necessary to provide people with work, services, the economy needs to be developed. It is necessary to build the modern industry, not shut down the factories, the technical intelligentsia should be developed.

- Finally, I repeat my question. Do you think there is a policy pursued by Moscow's high circles to prevent the development of the Caucasus? They are sent only to uneducated, clanist, talent, corrupted leaders from Moscow.

- You see, officials are different when talking about Moscow's high circles. I know the political elite in the last 50 years, I know some senior diplomats at the Central Committee, the USSR Council of Ministers, and the Central Committee of the Party, from the Komsomol. Everywhere I had fellows and friends.

I have sometimes been as a secret, sometimes apparent observer. Therefore, I know these corridors well that the current Russian policy is more primitive, and the people and the way of thinking are simple. This is entirely like this with the comparison with Soviet level. However, people are different. Unfortunately, even high-ranking officials are now extremely independent. There are obviously naughty, chauvinists and nationalists among them. They say something when they meet with the government, but they are completely different in the case, including hostility towards the Caucasus. But this is not a purposeful policy of departments.

- This is the weakness of the state

-The weakness of the state, the weakness of the rulers, who do not know what is going on.

- In an interview you noted that Russia gained a lot of money thanks to oil money. - -Why do people today live in poverty? Why pension reform is being done, the Platon system is launched to get as much money as possible from simple drivers, and the state already has money. Why is such a brutal policy against its population being pursued?

- Look, get a green two-volume book from there. In the second volume of the book “The Decline of Market Fundamentalism”, it is dedicated to the answer to your question. But I will tell you briefly, one of the reasons is the lack of economic management of the Russian Federation.

It is believed that even if a weak person is in this position for a number of years, he will become a specialist. This is not true! The dogmatic illusions inside him are intensifying, and he is causing great damage. The more power these people have, that much they damages society.

- Now it turns out that there are ignorants and looters in authority.

- It is not to say ignorants, in terms of performance, speaking skills, they have advantages over university professors but understanding the real situation, adequately responding, and if I give him three options to solve the problem, I'm not sure he can choose the best option. Not having creative start, fear of losing his position, slavery, irresponsibility to the parliamentary society, just being responsible before a person who attends him.

Even when he knows something is wrong, and even when it is right, he is wrong to convince his leadership. In fact, the taxation of the population is a final threshold, and when this limit is over, there will be nothing to get from people. However, it is demanded from them, then they will create panic and destroy everything that comes to them.